September 17, 2021

The Underground Marketer Podcast

Episode 24 – Norahlyza Tung Talks Influence and Her Upcoming Book on Behavioral Science

The Underground Marketer Podcast
The Underground Marketer Podcast
Episode 24 - Norahlyza Tung Talks Influence and Her Upcoming Book on Behavioral Science
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Learn How to Communicate More Effectively and Influence People 

Today, it’s my pleasure to welcome Norahlyza Tung, the author of the upcoming book 9 Doors of Perception: The ABCs of Influence in the Age of Alchemy. Norahlyza used to work as a computer technician for a law firm, but one day she realized that she wanted more. She wished to develop her people skills and climb the corporate ladder. So she attended a seminar on interpersonal skills (paid for by her company!) and that’s how she discovered her passion for behavioral science – and she even got the promotion!

Stay tuned for this episode because I can assure you that Norahlyza’s book will be a game-changer in the field of influence. It uses scientific methods to teach you how to best work with others as part of a team, adjust based on those around you, and overcome fear and anxiety. 

3 Big Ideas

  1. The past orthodoxy of the science of influence was that all the advice applied the same to everyone, that if you master these few techniques you’ll be able to deal with anyone. Norahlyza’s book is a game-changer because it recognizes that people have different personalities and brain types and what works for some may not work for others. 
  2. In her research, she identified 9 personality types. If you learn how to recognize each type, you’ll know their strengths and weaknesses and you can better adapt to the situation. For example, you won’t boss around someone who dislikes being told what to do. 
  3. Just like influence, the future of marketing is personalized. Soon enough, the technology will be advanced enough to advertise based on people’s personality profiles through the use of AI technology.

Show Notes

[03:44] Norahlyza explains what ABC-NLP is and how she has used it so far. 

  • It stands for Antecedent-Behaviour-Consequence and Neuro-Linguistic-Programming. The Antecedent is what happens before the Behavior and it produces the Consequences. 
  • In the neurogram, there are 9 different personality types. When working as part of a team, Norahlyza says that you can learn to adapt to others’ personalities so that things run smoothly. 
  • It’s important to be aware of each brain type in order to learn how to effectively work with them. In a way, it’s about personalizing how you communicate with others and exercise influence. 

[09:12] How to recognize the personality type from the get-go. 

  • In 9 Doors of Perception, each chapter opens up with how to identify each brain type. 
  • For example, Type 3, the Successful Worker, is someone who is defined by their work and concerned with their image. 
  • Being able to identify these 9 types will help you better interact with them.
  • Tudor adds that previous books on influence, such as Cialdini’s, didn’t recognize the importance of different personalities and that you need to adapt accordingly. He says that because of this, this upcoming book will surely be a game-changer. 

[11:32] Norahlyza talks about how this approach can benefit the company. 

  • The book can be read by everyone, employees and managers alike. 
  • The book is grounded in research in Amsterdam at the Institute of Behavioral Science and ties in with the Cybernetic Big Five Theory. 
  • It helps managers ensure that their team is more productive and there’s less conflict. 
  • It helps employees to navigate the corporate world better and cultivate the necessary skills to move ahead in life.  

[15:04] Does your personality type affect how you engage with others?

  • Norahlyza thinks that your personality type also plays an essential role and it’s important to know yourself. 
  • For example, she can be quite bossy so it’s useful to know how to recognize the people that don’t want to be bossed around. Otherwise, it may lead to conflict. 
  • If you want to figure out others, you need to know yourself first. 

[18:28] Tudor asks if 9 Doors of Perception can help us improve how we communicate with ourselves. 

  • It’s important to feel good about yourself no matter what’s going on in your life. Have some big gestures that can get you grounded and visualize negative feelings leaving your body. 
  • Norahlyza shares the spinning feelings technique and how it can be used to eliminate negative feelings and transform them into positive feelings.
  • The swish technique is very useful in terms of self-improvement. It helps with negative self-image and self-talk and helps you dispel that negative mental chatter. 
  • The movie theater technique is what helped Norahlyza overcome some long-term anxieties that she had about her job. You visualize yourself as being part of the audience and reframe negative experiences from an objective perspective. 
  • If you incorporate these techniques into your daily life, they will have instant effects on your mindset and self-image. 

[28:45] Norahlyza talks about how reframing negative experiences changed her life. 

  • She no longer felt afraid or inadequate. She had a newfound strength, she felt like she could overcome everything, and her performance at work was instantly improved. 
  • All of her fears and negative self-talk were holding her back from assuming risks and being proactive. 
  • Tudor adds that fear and anxiety are serious subjects that need to be talked about more because these negative feelings don’t let us reach our full potential. 

[35:55] Tudor says that in traditional NLP, one core principle is that the map is not the territory. What role does this play in ABC-NLP?

  • Norahlyza’s take on this core idea is that even though someone may have a personality type, they still have access to other types. More precisely, they have dominant personality traits but sometimes they can embody the traits of other types as well. 
  • In order to embody other personality types, you need to be aware of their biggest strengths and weaknesses.
  • Each personality type has its advantages so it’s important to be able to recognize WHEN it might be useful. 

[39:23] Tudor asks Norahlyza what she thinks about the impact of AI in the field of influence. 

  • Tudor says that, from his point of view, the future of influence is personalized. 
  • Nowadays, AI is trained to influence us based on our personality, our likes, and dislikes. 
  • Norahlyza admits that advertising is evolving rapidly, especially personalized ads and marketing agencies are learning how to best cater to people based on their personalities. 
  • Tudor thinks that the technology is not yet quite there, but it will definitely happen this decade and it will be a game-changer. Google and Facebook are already collecting data and profiling users, and, soon enough, AI will be able to determine the personality type of the person from the content they create and what they search for.

[41:49] Tudor wants to know how ABC-NLP will help people in the future. 

  • Norahlyza says that, for example, AI can identify the language patterns associated with each personality type and cater ads based on that. 
  • Tudor agrees with Norahlyza and says that as technology is developing, he thinks that 9 Doors of Perception is the first step towards this direction of even more personalized content and ads. 

[43:28] Norahlyza thanks all the people that were involved in the project, contributed to her work, and supported her along the way. 

  • Shout-out to Joost van der Leij, VU Amsterdam teacher and NLP certified instructor. 
  • Benjamin Garth, Magic Castle award-winning magician. 
  • Co-authors Becky Gonzalez, Heath Davis, Ioan Mateescu, Tudor Dumitrescu, and Tres Bogda, who wrote a piece for the book. 

[45:50] Lastly, Norahlyza shares her recommendations for those who want to learn more about this subject and improve their lives. 

  • The 9 Doors of Perception book (advanced reader’s copy provided for free below), Joost van der Leij’s Increase Your Influence Program, and David Deutsch’s Clubhouse Inner Circle (links to both below).

[45:55] Norahlyza recommends Joost van der Leij’s Increase Your Influence Program. 

  • You can take the class online (starts on September 21st), 7 days spread over 7 months, focused on the organizational behavioral management protocol. You can also attend the in-person event in Amsterdam from November 1st to December 13th. 
  • She adds that if your employer offers to reimburse you for taking this class, she will help you write the form herself. 
  • She adds that this program is suitable for everyone. What you learn is not only applicable to work performance but also everyday life. You will learn how to communicate effectively, gain more influence and achieve your goals. 

[50:05] Another resource that she recommends is David Deutsch’s Clubhouse. 

  • That’s something that they used to get advice about sales pages, e-mails, content writing, etc. 
  • The Clubhouse meets twice a month. It’s run by Deutsch and his team. For example, if you want advice about your recent sales page, you submit your page to him, and during the session, he will analyze it. 
  • Basically, he gives you feedback and teaches you everything you need to know about writing good copy for only $97/month. 

[53:05] Definitely go read the 9 Doors of Perception. Get the e-book for FREE before September 21st and you’ll also get the first day of class with Joost van der Leij. 

Recommended Resources

Download a FREE Advanced Readers Copy of 9 Doors of Perception

Increase your Influence Program by Joost van der Leij 

Clubhouse Inner Circle by David Deutsch 

Norahlyza Tung’s Website

Full Transcript 

Read The Full Transcript

Introduction    00:00:03    Marketing, explosive growth, and revolutionary secrets that can catapult your business to new heights. You’re now listening to The Underground Marketer Podcast with your host Tudor Dumitrescu, the one podcast devoted to showing new businesses how to market themselves for high growth.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:00:24    Welcome to the underground marketer. This is the place where we deliver the real truth about marketing and explore big ideas that can help new businesses thrive and grow into big ones. I’m your host Tudor. And today it’s my pleasure to welcome Norahlyza Tung. The main author of the upcoming book, 9 Doors of Perception, organizational behavior change, especially for leaders, managers, and directors, the ABCs of Influence in the Age of Alchemy. Welcome, Norahlyza. It’s my pleasure to have you here. And I think that it would be great if you start by telling myself and the rest of the listeners a bit about yourself and your story and how you got into this whole game of influence and persuasion.

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:01:12    Thank you so much, Tudor, it’s a pleasure to be here today. So my story starts with my job working as tech support for a law firm, I was looking for a way to really expand my skill set and my knowledge, and I wanted to learn how to better work on a team and open up communication with people. And I filmed this class by Joost van der Leij. He had this class with, with nine students where he went over ABC-NLP and over the cybernetic five theory and the neurogram. And that is the core of what this book nine doors of perception is about. It’s leveraging the Enneagram and Ventura grim and cybernetic big five and using those ideas to better work with people.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:02:04    That sounds awesome. So, I mean, what sort of change can somebody expect by going through this book and starting to implement some of these techniques that you just mentioned?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:02:15    Yeah, that’s a great question. So to the kind of change that you can get from this as, um, I’ll start by telling about the changes that I went through. So I wanted to sign up for a seminar about the NEA grant and a seminar about leadership and about using the Enneagram to enhance communication and teamwork. And this seminar, it cost $2,000, and using the teachings from ABC NLP and the neurogram, I was able to get my manager at work to reimburse me and also in the process while working on this seminar and increasing my skill set, I was able to, I learned about behavior science and about how to, well, the outcome was I got, I got a 10% raise and I got promoted. So, this was really great for me.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:03:07    Wow. That’s awesome. And did this promotion involve getting some help in attending that seminar or how is that related to it? Well, yeah,  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:03:16    Well, yeah, I was a hundred percent reimbursed for the seminar.

  

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:03:21    Wow. That’s awesome. So it sounds like this is really powerful. I mean, can you tell us a bit about the technology behind that will be revealed inside the book? So I know that you call it ABC NLP, can you tell us a brief summary what it is and how exactly it works? And then we can go a little bit more into how you’ve actually used it so far.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:03:44    Yeah. So to summarize ABC-NLP, A stands for Antecedents B’s behavior and C is consequences. And the NLP part is neuro-linguistic programming the antecedents. It’s everything that happens before the behavior, and then therefore produces the consequences. And what you do is you, uh, when taking into account the neurotic rim and the brain types, for example, a type one perfectionist, we reveal the behavior and the consequences when working with them on a team. So for example, with the type one, perfectionist, the most effective strategies to make them think that they thought of an idea first. So if you have a type one on your team, it would be to our advantage to make them believe that they came up with an idea first. And so that would make projects run more smoothly.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:04:40    Wow, that’s really interesting. So this actually gets me curious. Do you think that influence works differently based on different personality types and that it’s therefore really important to sort of be able to understand the personality type of the person that we’re dealing with so that we know how we can communicate more effectively with them?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:05:04    Uh, yes. I’m glad you asked that question. I’ll give a brief summary of the neurogram because there are nine different personality types in that model. There’s type one. The perfectionist also known as the reformer type two, the helper type three for the successful worker or the achiever type four, the romantic or the individualist type five analysts, the investigator type six, the loyalist type seven, the hedonist, and type eight, the boss challenger, and then last but not least type nine. The mediator also known as the peacemaker and each of those nine personality types has different things that different aspects to their brain type that makes the behavior science change. Like, as I mentioned earlier, with the type one perfectionist, making them think that they came up with an idea first, like with type two, the helper that the main idea behind their brain type is they crave love and attention. So as the antecedent, you wouldn’t really give an antecedent in this situation. It’s more of giving them love and attention as a reward. So that would be like the, see the consequence for if they did a positive behavior.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:06:21    Wow. Really, really fascinating. So, I mean, are these, because you mentioned the anagram has nine different personality types, are these different personality types grounded, let’s say in different needs that people have, you know, like some primary needs that they have, which differ and therefore they manifest different personalities, or what else are these personalities grounded in?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:06:47    Oh, yes. I wanted to clarify some people who follow the neuro gram or the Enniegram would say that these are not actually personality types, but rather like, you know, like Joost van der Leij he calls them brain types. So this is Thrones in behavior science and their brain chemistry. And then going back to some of their needs and some of their primary traits, like for example, the type six, the loyalists, they, their desire is to feel safe and to mitigate all the risks in their lives. So in their heads, they might run some, a disaster scenario of, oh, what could go wrong? Oh, my, my microphone might break during this podcast or all of the, the roof over my head is going to crumble. So when you understand that you’re working with a type six loyalist, it’s helpful to give them a list of all the worst case scenario possible and to tell them to dispel their, their beliefs about those scenarios.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:07:45    So for example, if I’m working with a type six at work, as a, like with my role at the law firm as a computer technician, uh, if I get someone who is asking me a lot of questions about their computer or about what’s going on with a project, it’s helpful for me to go over with them, everything, all the possibilities of what can go wrong and then give them time to think about it. So not forcing them into making a big decision right away, give them all the information available so that they know what the risks are, and even giving them time to, to think about how they would react to certain situations that would go wrong.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:08:23    So if I follow you correctly, this really is about personalizing influence and the techniques that we’re using to communicate based on the brain type of the person or the personality, however, we’re going to call it. And that’s obviously going to make it really, really a lot more effective. Uh, my follow-up question here really is obviously when you’re interacting with someone, you know, let’s say that you’re interacting with them for the first time. How would you go about understanding what type they are and what type you dealing with when you work with them or when you discuss with them, are there any giveaways that people should watch out for to understand what personality type they’re doing without obviously giving them a test?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:09:12    Yes. That’s a beautiful question, actually. So to identify to the brain types at the beginning of each chapter in the nine doors of perception, there’s a summary of how do I identify each type? So for example, the type three successful worker, that’s one of my favorites because visually they keep up with the latest fashion trends. They are very image-conscious and they’re easily identifiable because they’re going to be focused on the way they work. And they have a very driven attitude about their words. They, in a way, their work almost defines them where they will be successful at, at whatever cost it takes. And then some other examples, like, um, the type six oil ads, they will often come across as a doubter since they, since they are more fearful of their environment and constantly thinking of those disaster scenarios and still be doubtful and asking questions. So for example, a type six loyalist might ask, oh, so what about this podcast? Where is it going to be presented? Like, what if my microphone doesn’t work? What if they’ll ask all the, what if questions? And, uh,  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:10:26    Yeah, I mean, what really fascinates me about this is that and what I really love about nine doors of perception in way. I think that it’s truly revolutionary when it comes to influence, is that so far, most of the books and most of the literature on influence has been very general in the sense that it didn’t take into account the personality type that you’re dealing with. You know, for example, if we take old influenced books like influenced by Robert Cialdini, for example, it doesn’t go into detail in how different influence techniques have to be adapted to the person you’re dealing with. And I think that nine doors of perception does this beautifully. So that’s, that’s the one part that I think that I love the most and that’s truly going to be a game changer. So, I mean, can you tell me a bit about how this can benefit people in different roles within a company? So how can it benefit employees? How can it benefit managers? How can it benefit C level executives, if you can walk me through all three of them?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:11:32    Yeah. So the brief thing about this book is that it can be read from a bottom up perspective or a top down Brisbane. So what I mean by that is, let’s say if I’m a manager at a company reading this from a top-down perspective, I would be able to think, oh, I’m reading about a type two helper and oh, uh, Jane on my team moves like a type two because she is constantly wanting this love and attention from people. I may treat her differently according to the new program. And it’ll help me with my interaction with her, to what I mean to say is that people will react differently to different things. And since, since these nine different brain types and what this new program and ABC and L pay it’s, it’s grounded in research in Amsterdam from the Institute of behavioral science. So we tie in the cybernetic big five theory.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:12:33    Well, to summarize with the big cybernetic big five theory, you can remember it with the acronym ocean O stands for the openness to experience C conscientiousness is extroversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism, and be using those five traits you can pinpoint and identify with each of the nine brain types, because some of the brain types have, like for example, higher, a higher degree of extroversion or a more, more openness to experience. So taking those things into account is where you would get all that influence and open up those doors of communication for people. And then from the, like, from a bottom-up perspective, as I mentioned earlier, if I’m, uh, someone at a company whose, uh, below, uh, several levels and I’m reporting to different managers, it would be helpful to, to also think about those brain types. Um, the cybernetic big five theory, especially if you’re trying to please a manager. So like for example, if someone has a, a type nine mediator boss or manager at work, one would, would be able to think, oh, the type nine, they, they crave harmony. They want peace. So you would be able to embody that mindset in your work.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:13:57    That’s awesome. So, I mean, to summarize this a little bit, you basically saying that this can really help managers to make sure that their team is more productive and that there is less conflict at work if I follow you correctly, and it can help employees from a bottom up perspective, navigate politics at the office better, and also make sure that they get promoted more frequently and they get actually seen for the value that they provide. Would that be a fair summary or am I missing something?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:14:29    Oh, yes. That is a fantastic summary. Thank you.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:14:32    Awesome. So, I mean, the next thing I wanted to ask you here is obviously we know that we have to tailor our influence to the personality type that we’re dealing with. But one thing that makes me really curious is if your personality type actually affects how you deal with personality types, and if, for example, you have an easier time dealing with some personality types and the harder time dealing with different, with some specific different brain types.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:15:04    You assume that that is definitely a likely scenario. Obviously not everyone is going to get along in a corporate environment or anytime you’re working on a team with multiple people. Yeah. So, um, just to elaborate a little bit on that, for example, I’m a type eight, the boss also known as the plunger. So, uh, Joost would categorize me as what’s called a problem maker. So it’s ingrained in my brain type to say free stumble to my domestic partner, Ben. Oh yeah. There’s a mess over there. You need to clean that up. Or here’s a list of chores that needs to be done, do those while I’m out. And  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:15:44    Then adding onto that, um, as a type eight, I have what’s called, uh, access to a wing, a wing in this case, it it’s like the type that comes before or after your type. So for example, uh, Yost and I discovered that I’m a type seven Wayne. And so I’m a type eight with a seven wing. The seven is the hedonist. The seven wants to have fun and their primary drivers to get dispel the sadness in my life by escaping to something fun. And so taking that information to account, if I’m dealing with like a type, like for example, the successful worker, they may not want to be bossed around. They may want to have more autonomy and agency of where their work and not have to listen to someone like me boss from around, or another example is Ben, he’s a type seven. He had an analyst and he might want to be more focused on having a good time than listening to me, boss him around.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:16:45    And then another aspects to take into consideration is the stress and relaxation points of each type. So for example, the type two helper, when they are under stress, they’re more likely to display the traits of the type eight bus. So their language pattern will change from, oh, let’s get along, let’s spread the love and attention to the team, but not that tune will change too. I want let’s do what I want to do. Uh, so they take more charge of a situation when they’re under stress, when they go to that type aid stress wing. Yeah. And then one relaxed they’re going to display the characteristics of the type for the romantic and the type four is they’re characterized by their other individuality. So they may, once I contribute something to the world and be known for their contributions to the society,  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:17:39    To me too, it’s really interesting how you mentioned some personal examples of this and how it actually affected you personally, by learning about your own personality and then the wing personality as well. And to me, that’s really fascinating because we have communication with the outside world, right? So with other people with, uh, maybe employees, maybe with bosses, maybe with customers, maybe with investors, but then we also have communication with ourselves, right. So I was wondering if you can tell us a little bit about how nine doors of perception can help us improve the communication that we have with ourselves and going a bit more in the self-help direction here and how this can be useful there.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:18:28    Yeah. That is a fantastic question. So as far as self-help goes, part of my class with the fender late was the ABC NLP practitioner course. Uh, so this was more of an entry level class, but he taught me about the NLP aspect of the brain types. So in terms of self-help how that plays out is these visualization exercises. So for example, in nine years of perception, I talk about what’s called the spinning feelings technique. And the point of that technique is to feel good, no matter what’s going on in your life. So for example, if I’m having a bad day at work, I would use spinning feelings, technique. Uh, what that is is first you start by sitting or standing, grounding yourself, a wave, your arms away from your body and mentors, your body, get a feel for that energy, where your energy is flowing, uh, focus on whatever negative feeling is in your body.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:19:33    On, for example, if I have a stomach ache, because I just got into an altercation at work, I might think, okay, this negative feeling is in my stomach and visualize that feeling moving out of your body. So with me, I would visualize that as coming up through my stomach, through my chest area, through my shoulders, and then out through my arms and then through my fingertips and visualize that going that energy, going from the stomach to the chest, through the arms, through the fingertips, to the floor, through your feet, and then coming back in as a positive feeling or a positive emotion. And it also helps to assign a feeling a color. So if you’re feeling, feeling sick, it might be why, for example, I go, if I say, it’s the color red you think of that red color flying out of your body? Well, there’s a positive, like maybe on green color, swirling back back into you, like through your head, through your shoulders, through your chest, back down through your stomach, through your legs, and then through the, the earth below you.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:20:45    So with that creates a psych, uh, it’s like a donut that the energy and spooling outside, and then inside back into itself. Some other techniques that I found very useful in terms of self-improvement is suppose swish technique. One of them, uh, especially with, uh, like self-image or a negative self-talk. And I said to, to back up a bit to summarize about negative self-talk, there’s several different techniques you can use to dispel that, that negativity. So for example, if I’m thinking, if I look in the mirror and I say, oh, I look fat today, or my hair looks weird. I, since you’re asked to use, what’s called a sexy voice techniques and the think of like a sexy voice saying that to you. So in a way it’s reframing the issue to make it seem a little more ridiculous. And so in a way you start to laugh at this negative self-talk if you don’t have a sexy waste, but he suggests thinking of like Donald duck or like something like that to you. Yeah,  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:21:55    Yeah, yeah. It’s um, this sounds really effective. So, I mean, how long do you generally have to do one of these techniques for, to start seeing results in terms of changing how you feel about yourself or about a particular event or shifting the self image that you’re having at the moment? How fast basically does it work?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:22:16    So it works instantly my hottest session with, you know, with where we were focusing on forgetting or not forgetting, but reframing a negative experience or this negative experience that he made me reframe was I had lost a job, uh, quite a few years back. And it was affected me opens on recently because I carried a big insecurity with me for years. I, yeah, I was, I was devastated when I lost this job because it was promising I was getting raises and doing really good work, but there were things that were outside of my control and Yost helped me realize that. So the technique that we use for that, it’s, it’s, what’s called the movie theater technique where you think you first think of yourself in like, as the projection system in a movie theater, uh, visualize yourself, sitting in the audience, watching this movie screen. And also, um, I, I’m just doing a brief summary, so pardon me for kind of going faster  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:23:19    This no, no, it’s okay. It’s perfect. Yeah. So  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:23:22    You picture yourself sitting in the audience, watching this movie first, you neutralize the experience by visualizing yourself in black and light. So for example, I visualized myself in black and white going in and out of this office and doing everything in black and white and visualizing getting yelled at by the boss in black and white to neutralize the experience. And then you rewind, you mentally rewind this image in your head to a plane before the incident. So for example, Joost and I were able to pinpoint the date before I got fired. And I visualize that date before the incident. And you mentally rewind to that, to that starting point. And as you were mentally rewinding, you also visualize some, some music playing in the background, like, like circus music, like something that would be upbeat and help you reframe the issue,  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:24:17    The opposite of what you’re feeling. I see.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:24:20    So when you do that in your head three times, so when, when he was walking me through it, it’s, uh, played out it’s a more, a longer session. It, our session was about an hour. So yeah, I’m, I know I’m doing the encapsulation right now, but in the, you know, real live session, this would take about an hour where we walk through the issue. We don’t dwell on exactly like the, who, what, when, where, why of, why something went bad, but it’s mostly about reframing the issue, thinking of it as, oh, I can overcome this the next time this happens. And then finally at the end of that session, after you do that movie theater technique, three times, you visualize in the future, like, okay, a year from now, let’s say I lose my job again. And then you visualize that in a similar way where you neutralize the memory and you think about that circus music point of the background, only this time you think to yourself, something more positive. So for example, like I’ve handled the situation before I’m capable of finding another job and find fail. So really encouraging that positive self-talk in that last step.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:25:37    And it sounds like you’re, pre-framing that positive self-talk. So when it really happens, you already know what to fall back on to  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:25:47    In a way it’s like, it’s like visualizing something positive the way I think of it. And it’s like someone who’s trying to lose weight, it may be helpful for them to visualize themselves that at their target weight and that’ll help them. Yeah. That’ll help them manifest the weight loss.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:26:05    Absolutely. So, I mean, it’s fascinating to me because here we’re not really changing the contents of your experience, right? So the content of your experience when you got fired remained the same, but now you feel differently about it because you’ve sort of changed the structure of perception that you use to apply to it. And you’ve achieved, in my opinion, a sort of, let’s say metacognitive shift here, you know, where you’re suddenly seeing and experiencing the event and the memory differently to how it was before. Well, yes, most  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:26:43    Definitely. And that’s where the behavior science aspects comes in. And with reframing, like another example that I like to give is I was telling you that I have this irrational idea in my head that I feel that sometimes, and I’m not happy with my self image. So a brief exercise that he walked me through was, um, imagine these two thoughts in front of you. So imagine the thought of I’m fat and then something that is unlikely. So for example, he’s told me to visualize, like my toe has the ability to start a fire. Like my, my small toe has the ability to start a fire. And so yeah, those two thoughts. So with that basically is as comparing the idea of me being fat to something that is irrational and then mentally think of like a Slingshot of those thoughts, but like trading places in that visual field in person it’s a little more effective because you actually put, move your body and then like you, you put that thought onto a Slingshot, like a mental Slingshot, you pull it back and then you let go. And that thought traits places with what would that irrational thought?  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:28:00    I see. Well, that’s quite fascinating. And I mean, a lot of this stuff, if you, if we studied the science behind it, a lot of it is about memory reconsolidation right? Because just like with your case of, uh, when you lost your job, you’ve managed to change the, the feeling and the emotion associated with that memory. And I think that that can be really powerful for people because I mean, you tell me how, how did, how did having this bad memory affect you in the past and what change happened with you and what changes did you notice in your life after you managed to reframe it and get over it? Basically,  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:28:44    I think the defining feature was I don’t there felt the fear. I no longer felt inadequate. I had this new film strength to say to myself, I’m resilient. I can persevere. I can overcome anything. And it was amazing how immediately my performance at work. It was no longer hindered by all these, all this negative self-talk I no longer think, oh, what if I fail? What if I make a mistake when you’re free from that idea of making mistakes and thinking of all the things that could go wrong, you’re more free to create new decisions and add proactively.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:29:26    That’s fascinating because personally, and this is my personal opinion. I think that anxiety and fear are very important issues that are not often addressed when it comes to work in. And I think that nowadays, when we have a lot of technology available and we have the resources that we need, the thing that’s holding us back really are our feelings and our negative feelings specifically because they don’t let us access our full potential and use all the resources that we have available to ourselves. So is the ABC NLP framework effective for when it comes to dealing with anxiety, replacing fears, conquering fears, how would it work in those cases? Usually?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:30:19    So the way this would work in terms of dispelling fear and anxiety and improvement would be if like, let’s say, for example, if I’m working with a type five analyst and one of the characteristics of the type five is they like to be left alone, they value their autonomy. And, um, one of the keywords I wanted to bring up was probability. So, um, something that Yost vendor relay stresses is being open to the possibility of, of ideas. So in this situation, if I’m dealing with a type five analyst and they want to be left alone, the idea here is to not, not take it personally, what they want to be alone. So instead of interpreting it as, oh, they’re ignoring me, they don’t like me, uh, being open to the probability with the possibility that it’s their brain type. They, they want to be left alone. They’re not upset with  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:31:14    That’s how they work. I see that that’s really powerful. I mean, that has applications that I can see outside of work as well. I mean, in personal relationships, everywhere, pretty much problems like that always come up. And it’s fascinating how understanding other people better gets us to engage with each other a lot more productively across the board. One thing that I wanted to ask you, so obviously I gather from everything that you’ve said so far that ABC NLP is really, really powerful. One thing that has me curious is what’s the, what are the main differences between ABC NLP and the old form of NLP that was originally taught by John grinder and Richard Bandler?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:32:01    The main differences are like we use that ABC Porsche interceded behavior consequences. Uh, that’s something that I have not seen in the more traditional NLP books and the ABC Porsche. That’s the behavior science part that is, is being researched at the University of Amsterdam, uh, where they integrate the antecedent behavior consequences with the, with the cybernetic big five theory.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:32:30    Nice. Uh, so I mean, this research on the behavioral side, how does this change the way NLP is being the ABC stuff?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:32:42    So we then changes is when we apply it to the new program, the nine different brain types, you can dive a bit deeper into someone’s personality. So, and then another thing that I’ll add here is that in the appendix of nine doors of perception, we go into greater depth with, uh, the cybernetic big five theory and how those five ideas, uh, tie in with like the wanes and the stress and relaxation points of each type. So for example, with the, with the Thai bay at the boss, or when relaxed, we’ll move to, uh, a type two and then under stress will display the characteristics of the type of fiber analyzed. And then also take into consideration that the waves like seven or eight or nine, and how that could play out for one interactive with each of the nine types. And the thing that I would like to add or reiterate here is that on each of those nine types, each of those types have, have access to their two wins on their strengths and relaxation points. So that is something that’s delved into D privy appendix of nine of perception.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:33:54    Awesome. So, I mean, if I can summarize this pimp, please, correct me if I’m wrong, the ABC part to me, it sounds like it really helps to apply the NLP to the different personality types. Would you say that that’s a correct understanding?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:34:11    So we apply the ABC portion to each of the nine types. And so, like, as I said earlier with, for example, the type five analyst, so by the end, the antecedent would be where they want to be left alone. They, they desire their autonomy and freedom of choice. So I know you, I was told a story about how he had a team of type five analysts. So when he said to them was, I don’t care when, or how you get this work done. I just want it done by such and such date. So he gave them the freedom to decide what hours they weren’t and there were, he essentially removed any limitations from their work so that they could work more.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:34:56    Yeah, that’s, that’s fascinating. And I mean, I really love how this is how you’re learning basically how to influence different personality types. And we’re not trying to pigeon hole everything in the same approach to influence, which is basically pretty much what all the materials so far have been saying. You know, everybody had their own theory of influence, and then it was about taking everybody regardless of their personality through the same framework. So I love how this is going into the, into the depth of it. And it’s looking at how it can influence people based on their brain type. So I think it makes it really powerful. I wanted to ask you a question. Now I know that in traditional NLP, one of the core principles, so to speak is that the map is not the territory. I was wondering what role this plays in ABC NLP and how you actually use it in practice.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:35:55    So basically it might take up that idea of a map is not the territory, is that even though someone may be one brain type. So for example, if is Ben is a type seven hedonist, he still has access to all the other different types. So he can still, he can still embody the traits of a type four romantic. Like sometimes he might even embody the traits of a type three successful worker. Uh, so this is more of a guide of how to gauge people and we don’t want to make it seem like people can only be one type, especially since there’s like access to wings and stress and relaxation voids. So even though someone will be one type, they can still borrow the traits from these other types, uh, embody those personality traits as well.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:36:51    Is there a specific activity that people can do to help them embody different personality types or how, how can they go about accessing those personality types? Basically,  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:37:05    That’s a great question. So what are you going to break that apart is I, I think of it in terms of the, um, like the, the deadly sin versus the main virtue of each type. So the way Yost plays that out is like, for example, with, with the type a, the boss there they’re deadly sins last, if you take that into account, that stress points and like the deadly sin of each type, then you can, uh, more effectively think about where you might embody somebody as traits like, uh, the type sex, their main virtue is, uh, is courage and being brave. So in a way, if you look at these nine different types and look at some of their, uh, their strengths and some of their weaknesses, you can think, oh, I might embody the type to help, or when I’m in a group setting, because I want to give the love and attention to, to my team, or, yeah, we’re like in different situations, like if I’m giving a presentation at work, I might think about how a type three successful worker would handle it, like have success on the minds and be more work-oriented.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:38:19    Like I personally like the type five analyst for the most out of the nine types, or like I admire those traits, the most of being analytical, being logical, gathering all the facts to come to a decision. And it’s that kind of personality that I try to have at work when I’m wanting to be my best.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:38:40    That’s awesome. I have a question now, which is a bit about the, the future of this, because I think that the future of influence is definitely personality based influence. And one big development in this field at the moment is AI technology that used online on the internet to decipher people’s personality based on their posts on social media, based on the contents they share based on their actions online, what sort of role do you see AI technology playing into the future? Do you think that it’s going to increase the demand for a personality based influence? Do you think that for the first time in history, perhaps this is going to become crucial in order to stand out and actually influence people?

  

Norahlyza Tung    00:39:32    Yes, definitely. And especially with how something like advertising is changing so much and how, you know, when you’re looking at your phone and scrolling through Twitter and you see a personalized ad of something that you may have recently been talking about, or even thinking about, and suddenly you see an ad for something that seems catered to you with the application that I could see this going in is like for ad agencies, if someone has a client that they’re trying to make ads for. So for example, if they have, if their church to make ads for a large software drink company, and they want to cater an ad to a type one, perfectionist, they may say something like, yeah, this drink is best is best on its own. Be original is always best. Or for the type two, same something like, oh, this drink will help you be will help you be the best hostess or best host at your next party or what the type seven like, oh, this, this product is going to help you become the life of the party. Uh, so catering some of those ads to, to these nine different brain types. 

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:40:44    Yeah, that’s, that’s really fascinating. So, I mean, I run an agency myself, an ad agency. The, the thing here that’s really fascinating that I think will have a big impact on the future is actually personalizing ads based on personality types. So the technology is not yet quite there, but I can see in the not so distant future five years, maybe 10 years from now that platforms like Facebook and Google, they’re already profiling people and building a profile for each person that uses them. But I mean, I think that this is going to expand to the point that you’re going to be as an advertiser, allowed to target people based on their personality. And I think that that’s going to be a game changer for in the advertising industry. Do you think that my next question now is how do you think that ABC NLP is going to come in when it comes to helping somebody take advantage of these changes in the future?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:41:50    I’m glad you brought that up because in the night doors of perception, something we mentioned is language patterns to look out for. So for example, with the type one perfectionist, they often say we must, or we have to do something. So I can imagine it in the future using that identified the language patterns of each of the types and using that with the ABC and getting an ad or a product or service catered to that sort of mindset.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:42:23    I mean, that’s, that’s definitely the future. If you ask me, I mean, so far really what’s been holding us back from doing this is simply that the technology wasn’t there, but I think that the technology now is catching up to it. So it simply makes sense that those areas, which we haven’t yet developed so much actually get developed. And I think that nine doors of perception is the first step that I’ve seen towards that direction. So, so that’s, that’s absolutely awesome. So, I mean, uh, massive congrats for taking this project on from the very beginning. Thank you. Yeah. I wanted to now ask you a bit about, because we discussed about the technology, how it can be used, who it can benefit and how it can benefit them. I was wondering if you can tell us a bit more about the other people who are involved in the nine doors of perception project, and basically what sort of expertise and input they are bringing into the project to make it such a success.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:43:29    I would love to give a shout out to Joost van der Leij, VU Amsterdam teacher, and NLP certified instructor, Benjamin Garth, a magic castle award-winning magician, and then all the coauthors, Becky Gonzalez, Heath Davis, Ion Mateescu, and, uh, thanks to you Tudor and also a thanks to Tres Bogda, who also wrote a piece for this, for this book.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:43:56    It’s my pleasure. So thank you for all of that and or Elisa. Yeah, this is, this is really fascinating. So, I mean, I’m curious, how did you first meet used  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:44:06    Or you met him through  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:44:09    Oh, nice. Nice. Because it sounds like the, the technology that he has given birth to really fits perfectly to this personality based influence. And I mean, this, this was the thing that was missing for a lot of us who are working in the advertising industry and obviously everybody else who needs to effectively communicate with themselves and with other people.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:44:32    Oh yes, definitely. And, um, to elaborate on my answer meeting host, I was originally writing a book called any grim and love. So that book it’s, it was really an unfinished, uh, however, it’s now part of the appendix of nine doors of perception and what that is, is it walks you through each of the nine brain types and how they would interact in a relationship with, with the other types. So there’s each type, like the type one with a type 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. And so on.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:45:06    I imagine that there must be some types which don’t get along very well.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:45:11    Oh, there’s something I need in the appendix. I frame it as some challenges you may face or strengths and weaknesses. I do my best to use positive language.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:45:25    So, I mean, what sort of resources would you recommend to people who want to learn more about this? I mean, they obviously the, the nine doors of perception book, uh, are there any other resources that you would recommend? And if so, I’m more than happy that we put links for them in the, in the show notes so that people can actually access them and get started with them.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:45:51    Yes. Thank you for asking. So the number one resource that I would like to recommend today is Joost van der Leij’s Increase Your Influence program. And there is an online class that he has starting that starts on September 21st. And I was even going to say, if your employer offers to reimburse you for taking his class, I will help you right before myself. So I would like to throw that out there to anyone listening.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:46:20    That’s an awesome offer. Thank you. Thank you. So, I mean, I’m sure that our listeners are going to love that. Can you tell us a bit more about the program? So what, what can they actually expect out of increase your influence? How does it work? Will they be required to attend anything? Do they do it online? If you can be, give a bit more detailed, because I’m sure that, uh, our listeners are going to be interested in that.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:46:46    Yes. Thank you so much for asking. Uh, so there are two different ways to take this class. There’s the online class that starts on September 21st at that boggling portion that is good to consist of seven days that are spread over seven months. So that, that gives you time to ingest the material. And that focuses on the organizational behavior management protocol. And on that website, the influence.amsterdam link, it lays out each day. So for example, on day one, Yost is going to go over the ABC bottle of the cybernetic big five theory and you on day two, he’ll go into a deeper dive in the cybernetic, big five, and it, after got measure bed plan to, to use that OPM protocol in your everyday life also the days are laid out in the website.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:47:44    And you mentioned that there’s a, cause you mentioned there are two versions. So one is the online one. So is there a one that you attend in person or how does that work?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:47:54    So then there is one that is live in Amsterdam. That takes place on November 1st, second, third, fourth, and fifth, and on December 13th. And there’s a few more days that are, are tailed in there, uh, January 21st, February 21st, March 21st.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:48:13    Yeah. So I’m really curious. So for this online one, you mentioned that it’s going to be seven days pred across seven months. When you say a day, is that a full day, eight hours? What sort of thing can people expect  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:48:30    From 10:00 AM till 5:00 PM.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:48:34    Awesome. So it’s, it’s like a full day that that’s great. All right. So I mean, who, if you had to select a bunch of people who would you most recommend this program to and what can they expect when they come out of it?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:48:50    This is recommended for absolutely anyone. It just simply something that anyone could learn from, um, especially when it’s so applicable to not only your work performance, but everyday life and what to get out of this, what to expect is, uh, increased communication and increasing your influence on others.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:49:12    Mhm. So, so that’s awesome. So, I mean, can people expect that after going through this program and learning, they can, for example, get promoted more easily. They can maybe if they’re in sales or maybe if they’re a director, they can learn more clients. What sort of expectations should they have going through it?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:49:33    Oh, yes. This is a great class for increasing sales 

influence and, uh, getting more clients, uh, especially since, you know, still be going over the language patterns I using that ABC and LP framework to get to know people better, better, and to being able to effectively.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:49:54    Right. So that, that sounds great. So, I mean, this is the first resource that you mentioned, but you also mentioned that there are a few others. So, I mean, what else would you recommend?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:50:06    Well, another thing I wanted to recommend is David Deutsch has clubhouse. That was something that Ben and I were utilizing to, um, get advice about, uh, sales pages, even getting advice about emails or, uh, advice about how to write something that is more effective, that is going to get people to want to read it. So there’s that the link to his clubhouse.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:50:35    Awesome. So, I mean, can you walk me a bit through how the clubhouse thing works? What exactly is it? I simply don’t know. That’s why I’m asking you.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:50:45    David’s clubhouse meets twice a month. It’s run by David Deutsch and his team. And what you do is you submit a piece of work. So for example, if I want advice about my recent sales page, I will give that page to David Deutsch. And he, well, during this clubhouse session, he will look at it and talk about, oh, did this, does this grab people’s attention? Doesn’t this is this good to make an effective sale or not?  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:51:16    Wow. That sounds really powerful. And I mean, I know, I know about David and I know about the team at marketing rebel. So I mean, getting some time with them to actually review your copy. Sounds really powerful. I gather that you are taking part in these meetings. So can you, can you tell some people how it goes and what they can expect out of it? Are there a lot of people in there? Do you get a lot of one-on-one time? How exactly does that work?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:51:45    Oh yeah. The thing that I love most about it is you do get that one-on-one time with David Deutsch and standoff, and then there’s also the other members in this. So, uh, this last session that I was in there were about 20 people. And the thing I enjoy about it is there’s you get lots of different feedback. So the other members can chime in and say, oh, I like those sorts. So it gives you a chance to get some really honest feedback.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:52:14    So it’s like a focus group. Oh, that’s, that’s awesome. And I mean, how much does, how much does he does David charge for this  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:52:24    David Deutsch charges $97 a month for his clubhouse. 

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:52:28    Wow. Wow. That’s yeah, that’s really fantastic value because, I mean, you’re getting some copywriting pros to advise you on your copy for just $97 a month. That sounds absolutely fantastic. Wow. That’s great then. So, I mean, I’m sure that our listeners are going to love those two resources. And of course I presume that we can put a link down in the resources for them to the book. Right. So that they can actually get the book.  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:53:03    Oh yes, definitely. Um, and what we’re going to do is we’re going to sell the ebook for a dollar. And with that, what that dollar gets you is a digital copy of nine doors of perception and that first day of class, September 21st with van der Leij.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:53:21    Wow. Nice. Nice. This sounds fantastic. This on September 21st is going to be including the $1. Yes. Wow. That’s that’s true. Tremendous value. And I suppose that this offer is only going to be up until September 21st, right? Correct. Okay. So they will have to sign up certain dates and get it before then. Okay. That’s cool. Well, I’m sure that we’re going to have a ton of listeners who are going to be interested in this and joining up. Is there anything that they can do if they want to continue with the program after SIM September 21st,  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:54:02    If we want to continue with the program after September 21st, uh, you would sign up, um, that increase your influence program link.  

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:54:11    Okay. Awesome. Then. So, uh, then thank you very much, Nora Lisa, for your time today, and for introducing our listeners to nine doors of perception. Are there any last words that you would have for our listeners now at the very end?  

 

Norahlyza Tung    00:54:29    No, this has been really great. I am grateful for your time. 

 

Tudor Dumitrescu     00:54:33    Thank you then. Very much, Norahlyza, glad to have you and for our listeners stay tuned for the next episode. And until next time, keep growing your business and providing massive value to the world. Remember you are the reason why we’re all growing richer. Our freedoms are expanding and we’re all living in greater prosperity. 

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